I put forth that the Bible has not a single contradicting argument. On the contrary, the meaning of scriptures was more fully realized by its train through Hebrew and Jewish history. This is one truth (of a saddening lot of truths) that most Christians either do not explain often or do not themselves understand. I won't bother going in depth because it would take hours and hours, and it the whole idea that God's Word doesn't contradict itself will be discounted from the beginning--though that statement is the Truth.

I also put forth that you are correct, partially. [i]"These writings were inspired by God, that's true, but they were interpreted by human beings, and human beings are not perfect."[/i] In that last sentance, you explained the essence Romans 1-5. Well done. That is typically the hardest part to explain when presenting the message of Christ. In the first sentance I quoted, you explained the essence of I Timothy 2:15. [i]"All scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness."[/i] (NIV) Well done, again. Also, I whole heartedly agree with the idea that the God's Word was interpreted by [i](fallible)[/i] human beings. It would be idiocy to say that each writer did not have his or her own spin on what God would have him say. You can't look at the differing writing styles of Peter and Paul or the diverse points of view of the gospel writers.

Thirdly (and finally, for tonight anyways): You are correct in your concluding argument of "Doesn't matter whether you call yourself a Christian or a Moslem - the belief that you are right is ultimately - wrong." Well done, again. I certainly appreciate your insight, and I hope those that are speaking on behalf of Christians take heed to your words. But...let me append them a bit:

Here is the distinction, dear friends (of course, I use the words 'dear' and 'friend' colloquially since I am not actually acquainted with any of you, but that doesn't mean I don't care for you): The belief that you are right IS ultimately wrong. No man is right, nor can he be right. On the other hand, the belief that God is right is ultimately correct. It is not only ultimately (or finally) correct, but also since before the foundation of the world and constantly throughout time is it correct. That is the distinction.

I would to apoligize for not looking far enough down on the thread to see the comments that by [b]dmmccrac[/b] that were of a similar subject as mine. That being said, I need to clarify a couple of things which I (and dmmccrac) said.

First, I apoligize for quoting an incorrect scripture reference. The verse I quoted [i](and meant to quote)[/i] was II Timothy 3:16 ([i]"All scripture is God-breathed and useful for..."[/i]). It's almost ironically humorous that I misquoted II Timothy 2:15, which says [i]"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly hangdling the word of truth."[/i] (ESV) Ouch. That's a stinger.

Anyways, moving on.

I wanted to point out that in review of the occasions that scripture does speak of slavery you may say that it "condones" [i]([url]http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=condoning[/url])[/i] indebted servitude, but you may only say that because it never out-right forbids it. It would be more difficult to say that scripture actually supports or aids the causes of slavery.

In fact, the Bible is probably one of the most forward-looking (toward emancipation) writings of its time. I qualify my statement with "probably one of the...", because I have not actually done much research into other writings (other than the historian Josephus) of the same time period that pertain specifically to the attitudes toward and treatment of slaves. If you look at scripture with the mind that EVERYONE "believed" in slavery in that time, the approach that scripture commands is one of kindness, respect, and justice toward slaves. Check out Colossians 3:22-4:1 or Philemon (which is about a slave who became a brother in Christ).

I wanted to point out that dmmccrac made the mistake of commenting that it was a logically fallacy to say that [i][b]"THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES."[/b][/i] Actually, that statement is not an [i]"error of reasoning; error which may be recognized and corrected by prudent thinkers."[/i] ([url]http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/[/url]) Instead, that mistaken belief is a predisposition--a tenet of a worldview. This is not something that can easily be "recognized and corrected by prudent thinkers." The hardest part about accepting the truth of a foreign belief is disregarding the most basic instinctual convictions that have been bred into one's very being--and I don't expect many to do so easily.

Hey doelcm,

Just wanted to let you know that I thoroughly enjoy your insight on the scriptures, and wanted to let you know that I wholly support what you are saying. God has given you this insight, and I commend you with holding it out to dubious and questioning readers.

I know it can be frustrating, but continue to keep your cool (as you have been!) and help to show these guys/gals the truth. I know it is difficult to see any fruit on messageboards such as these, but I pray that at least one single seed could be planted which might someday come to fruition.

If you ever need any encouragement or backup on any issue or discussion, hit up the email: bryan.turner@gmail.com I'd love to help out if ever I can.

Your brother in Christ,
Bryan Turner
aka: i_must_decrease (on imdb)

doelcm--

I must appologize for the last private message I sent you, for I meant it to be sent to razeal35, but accidentally clicked on the wrong link. I hope that nothing I said was in any way offensive.

In searching my message for anything that might have potentially been offensive I wanted to clarify that by calling you and other discussers "dubious," I did not mean of questionable character, but of doubting or questioning mind.

Also, I wanted to mention that I do appreciate you for your open-mindedness. As you said, "I still don't believe in any kind of afterlife that is relevant to me, but I am intrigued by your point of view." That statement deserves the highest respect, and I wanted to let you know that I have that for you. And I appreciate the fact that you are one of few who actually study the arguments of a differing view and even call them on it when their interpretation is incorrect, such as when you told razeal that you did not understand how he got that meaning from those verses. (which he did correct)

At any rate, I'm sorry my message was mistakenly sent to you, and I hope (pray) you find truth around the boards.
-Bryan

Right now I am only going to focus on your argument of "homophopia":

Here's the deal. Homosexuality is a sin--but you knew Christians believed that. The thing is that so are many, many other actions and states of the heart. Scripture lays it out in Romans 3:23-25 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance he had passed over former sins." Put shortly, all have sinned, because all fall short of the glory of God. God requires perfection. You ask, "How can God be so cruel?" Because God is perfect. I Timothy 6:13-16 says that He is clothed in unapproachable light and that He alone has immortality, that he is the Blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords. All over scripture are similar descriptions of YWHW. We cannot even comprehend the glory and splendor of the LORD. I'll come back to this in a minute.

Now, homosexuality is a sin, in fact, it is as much of a sin as murder, rape, and theft. Those are pretty serious, right? At the same time, lust, deceit, not treating your neighbor as yourself, (and most difficultly) not love God will all your heart, soul and mind--all of these things are just as much of sins as homosexuality. Believe it or not, there's not a scale of horrible sins and "little white" sins. To God, it's just sin. It's just disobedience. It's all in that category of "horrible" or "worst" sins.

Why is that? Why would God engineer it all to work this way? Because if there was a scale or some spelled out way to rate sins from worst to best, then it would be possible for some humans to be "better" than others. It would be possible for some to by their own actions and work to control whether or not they would get into Heaven. Then men would have control some, even if in a miniscule detail, over God. The LORD our God, who is so holy and powerful he could only be describe Himself to Moses as "I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3:13-14), would not, and even could not allow humans to have dominion over Him in anyway. Yes, He is a jealous God. He wants all the glory for Himself, and why--because He alone deserves it.

[as a note that I meant to add in earlier but forgot, I'd like to point out why, exactly, conservative Christians believe homosexuality is a sin. I Corinthians 6 speaks about sexual immorality, among other things. It says that the sexually immoral, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexual offenders (along with a list of non-sexual related sin lifestyles) will not inherit the kingdom of God. In I Corinthians 6:18 we are instructed to "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body." (NIV)]

Now, the most obvious question is...if homosexuality is deserving of the same punishment as lying or sins of thought, then why do "Fundamentalists" make such a big deal about it? One reason is that homosexuality IS still a rising trend in America, and homosexuals are still the minority. While it is becoming socially acceptable, it is still not quite fully socially acceptable, and hardly the norm. That makes it an easier target, because there are more people against it than for it.

Secondarily, it is a high-gloss, very flashy and glamourous kind of sin. Many homosexuals know they are living differently than the norm, that they are pushing the boundaries or societal behavior, and many take pride in that fact. I mean, what kind of person takes pride or wears a bumber sticker because they are disrespectful to their parents or that they occasionally envy the neighbors' car? This also makes them homosexuality (and other sexual sins such as debauchery) an easier target for denominations and fundamentalist conventions to latch onto and to publicly rebuke.

Thirdly, and I think most primarily, homosexuality is a lifestyle. It is more than an occasional sin, it is a way of life. (I'm making a slight distinction between homosexuals and those that have practiced homosexual sex once or twice. While the latter is certainly outside of the natural sexual relations mentioned in Romans 1:26-27) To sin once is one thing. To live in a life that is so closely connected to sin expresses blatant disobedience (or ignorance on the part of those that do not know God's standard on sex). Yet again, this makes homosexuals easier for someone like Jerry Fallwell to attack. Unfortunately that is a poor approach, and one that is not going to lead to many life changes.

The call of the Christian is to constantly be representatives of the immense and free grace that has been given to us in such a way that our lives reflect Christ's love and holiness. We are to tell the Gospel message, which is not one of damnation but of Salvation and true love (in the Greek "Agape" love), the selfless love that razeal35 was speaking of. And we are to love even those that will reject the message, even those that live in lives of sin, because we know that we too sin everyday, but because of a repentant heart and attitude, and by acknowledging Christ's sacrificial work on the cross, we have accepted the salvation that God holds out to anyone that would accept it on faith.